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Post by alisong on Nov 20, 2008 16:01:36 GMT
I am considering acquiring an Enigma 8L Vacuum autoclave from Excel Healthcare. It is rather small but I have limited space. Has anyone any experience of this make of machine?
Thanks Alison G
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Post by dtt on Nov 20, 2008 17:26:39 GMT
Hi Ali I believe Canonbury are doing a special on those particular ones at the moment. May be a good idea to compare prices ( and ask for a deal as well they are not selling much big equipment at the moment) 8ltr is small . I have a prestige century 3 vacuum 16 Ltr autoclave which will take 4 trays( flat )or 1 rack ( upright). I'm not sure how the internal chamber relates to the external dimensions but be warned they are noisy and I wouldn't want one going in the surgery when I have a patient in there So , you will need to steralise after you have finished which will mean a whole days instruments @ 40 minute per cycle + cooling /drying time, so a small one would require at least 2 cycles = another 2 hours + on your working day. Think to the future is my advice. I don't know how busy you are at the moment but your workload will increase in time so make sure you don't have to purchase another one in a years time because you cant turn the instruments around quick enough The other thing to find out is the SERVICING COSTS associated with these machines. Mine has to be done twice a year @ £375 PER SERVICE !! I have leased mine (better tax advantage) and the agreement covers servicing and parts. Just a few points for you to ponder before you make a final decision. Hope it helps Cheers Derek
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Post by davidsmith on Nov 22, 2008 16:46:12 GMT
Hi Del
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Post by davidsmith on Nov 22, 2008 18:26:16 GMT
Alison
Here's another thing.
Many if not all the Autoclave suppliers who deal mainly with pods will tell you there is a requirement coming in in 2010 that you must have a vacuum and printout autoclave to be with guidlines. This is not so, I have checked this with the SCP who say they have no knowledge of such requirements. But if anybody knows better perhaps they will respond here.
Cheers Dave
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Post by dtt on Nov 23, 2008 13:42:52 GMT
Hi Alison ,Dave et al Dave I didn't know that as I have not price checked it personally against other suppliers.It was just information they sent me by email on their special offers just counted for you.. 6 trays ( flat) 12 in rack upright I found to sterilize in bags flat there is usually an additional drying cycle required so I mainly use the rack which I get 12 in the rack with one each end making 14 sets at a time and perhaps some smaller items flat in the remaining tray underneath. If you overload the rack with bags the drying is compromised and more dreying cycles are needed. Its quicker to do 2 runs if you have to. I don't know only inasmuch as I assume the vacuum compressor is more powerful the bigger the chamber as more air needs to be displaced ?? See above, it is the compressor that is noisy which starts 2/3 times on the cycle and sounds a bit like a motorbike Lets put it this way you wouldn't want it going next to you when your talking to someone ;D LUNCH ? whats that then ?? Thats the point I was making to Alison, MAKE SURE you know all the costs involved before you sign on the dotted line. The service contract (within my leasing agreement) more than doubled the total cost of what I was originally quoted so be warned Fine for your ordinary steam one Dave , it took 2 of us to lift mine up onto the shelf (which is supported be 3 large brackets) ( and the other bloke was a lump as well) ;D They(mine is) are very very heavy and I think to take them places is a non starter and I believe they cannot be validated and certified as such unless it is by a specialist engineer. Just some more things to ponder Ali Cheers D
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Post by dtt on Nov 23, 2008 13:49:43 GMT
Dave As far as I'm aware ALL sterilisation procedures are RECOMMENDATION ONLY and there is no STATUTORY requirement at present. That is why the immersion systems are still as valid as the autoclave systems and are freely available. cheers D
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Post by blinda on Nov 23, 2008 18:16:17 GMT
Hi Alison, Good advice from Del `n Dave there. This is absolutely correct. Kevin Hill (SCP Professional Practice Officer in 2007) confirmed this along with Adrian from CANONBURY (sorry Dave ), who advised me that there are no STATUTORY requirements at present (thanks Del ). However, word on the street is that come 2010 we will have to present evidence of best practice (according to whichever prof body we belong to) to the HPC, if called upon with regard to sterilisation of instruments. So many are purchasing autoclaves with printers (as this is the only documented evidence of reaching the correct temperature & pressure for the minimum amount of time). Also agree with Del (who incidently has a supadupa vacuum autoclave, just in case any of you may think he was endorsing a quick swish in dettol… : . Cheers, Bel
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ipod
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by ipod on Nov 23, 2008 18:37:58 GMT
Just a point of clarification guys:
2010 was never a year, it was the number of the document. Thats where the confusion arose.
Ipod.
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Post by dtt on Nov 23, 2008 20:07:14 GMT
Hi ipod Ahh that'll be it then Perhaps you can enlighten us all to the current Legislation and STATUTORY requirement for sterilisation of instruments please?? Thank you so much Derek
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ipod
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by ipod on Nov 23, 2008 20:31:21 GMT
I am sure you could do that far more effectively than me Derek.
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Post by dtt on Nov 23, 2008 20:35:48 GMT
ipod I did Whats your take on it cumon ipod you started now lets hear you AGREE WITH ME coz you know im right ( take that back to TFS ;D) Cheers D
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ipod
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by ipod on Nov 24, 2008 8:19:29 GMT
Hello DTT, I am not sure exactly what it is you think I should agree with?
I would suggest that what you have posted is your own interpretation of MHRA/MDA Guidelines on Decontamination of Surgical Instruments (unless of course you have evidence to the contrary) and that colleagues might find it misleading.
regards ipod
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Post by blinda on Nov 24, 2008 9:10:35 GMT
Why don`t you two just get a room? Seriously guys, this is becoming more than a tad boring..... ipod, thanks for the reminder that 2010 was a document, i had forgotten that. Of course the `MHRA/MDA Guidelines on Decontamination of Surgical Instruments is just that; guidelines. However, if you were to be investigated by the HPC or claimants insurers, you could be held to task as to why you did not follow best practice as recommended by your prof body, who point to these guidelines as the standard. Cheers, Bel
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ipod
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by ipod on Nov 24, 2008 11:19:02 GMT
Hello Blinda, Thank you for for your input. DTT asked me to comment, so I did. I am sorry you have a problem with that.
My point was that his statement
"As far as I'm aware ALL sterilisation procedures are RECOMMENDATION ONLY and there is no STATUTORY requirement at present. That is why the immersion systems are still as valid as the autoclave systems and are freely available."
could be seen as be misleading colleagues on the fact - as you very correctly pointed out - that each professional body has it's own interpretation of MRHA guidelines. THAT (caps for emphasis only) is what we should be advising on, regarding insurance cover.
As you are aware SCP advocates minimum standards of practice as having autoclave sterilistion.
But the Glennie Review may mean our Scottish colleagues having to resort to NHS standards - which could be CSSD or single use. regards ipod
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Post by robertisaacs on Nov 24, 2008 12:13:29 GMT
I am fast losing my sense of humour about this! She makes a valid point that the statutory requirements are not neccessarily adequate for insurance cover or in defense at an HPC or liability hearing (which i'm sure derek would agree with as he has not spend £££££ on a decontamination rig which would look at home on the starship enterprise, just for fun.) And Blinda was Oh Hell SO right when she said:- So thats it. No more. No more point scoring, veiled sniping or anything of the type. And you BOTH know exactly what i mean so don't be spreading your hands in a gesture of injured innocence and saying "who me? Its the other one!". Oh and Ipod? Its getting really old seeing stuff from here transplanted to TFS for gloating purposes! If you are here for a polite and constructive debate you are welcome. If you are here just to gather ammo for the little flame war they have going on you are emphatically not. Enough now. Robert
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