hcfm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by hcfm on Mar 16, 2009 20:04:13 GMT
Hi all, hope you're all well
I'm trying to find guidance regarding autoclaves legally needing printers etc as was looking at chiro mart's website today and it states uk legislation might change so encouraging people to buy machines with a printer. Having one with a printer is not a prob, but was just wondering about the rational for it.
had a quick look at google but can't find anything about it, can somebody direct me to where i can find information about it
thanks
andy
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Post by Admin on Mar 17, 2009 12:18:05 GMT
Hi Andy,
Curent legislation does not require you to have an autoclave with a printer. This will not change in 2010.
Check with Nigel Thompson, Principal Scientific Advisor, Dept of Health, or your own professional body.
Please be aware that companies who sell autoclaves seem to be scaremongering in order to sell high-end machines. The latest SMAE Journal carries a nice example of an autoclave salesman being caught out.
Cheers,
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Post by robertisaacs on Mar 17, 2009 15:34:06 GMT
Agreed. Pointless bloody exercise anyway! All a printer proves is that a cycle was run, does not prove your instruments were in it at the time! And yet we have to keep ours in the NHS for 8 years!  Bad day. R |
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Post by dtt on Mar 17, 2009 21:27:29 GMT
Sorry cant av that  My vacuum autoclave tests itself on every cycle and prints the fact that all temps ect were correctly achieved so the information and cycle # can be put on the steri bag hence an audit trail is created ( thank you HPC  ) not a perfect one I agree but one nevertheless. R U BLOODY SURE  we ARE SUPPOSED to be professionals in healthcare are we not??  You would have a row in an empty room wouldn't ya??  BEHAVE Donut ;D cheers D  |
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hcfm
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by hcfm on Mar 17, 2009 21:57:39 GMT
Cheers for that guys - thought it was strange that i couldn't really find anything substantial about it.
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Post by robertisaacs on Mar 17, 2009 22:09:03 GMT
Ah, The old philisophical question. If a bollock is dropped in an empty room, and nobody hears it fall, does it still make a point? With respect, I think you're talking Taurine! So you've created an audit trail. Great. So do you write the cycle number from the printer to the steri pack and from thence to the notes? Every time? I strongly doubt it! And even if you did under what circumstances would this be useful. If somebody got an infection and you tried to use that as a defence they'd rip you to shreds! "so Mr Isaacs, you say you sterilized these instrument?" Yes "and what proof can you offer?" I got a number in the notes, see? "and you wrote the number on the sterile pack from the sterilizer log" Yes "do you still have the pouch?" No. "But you then transfered the number onto the patients file" Yes "can we see the patients file and all the previous sterilizer entry numbers and corresponding sterilizer receipts" ermm.... "do we have anything but your word for the fact that you did indeed use THAT set of instruments on THAT patient?" ermmmm,...... "could this effect have been recreated by, for instance, running the machine once a day and writing the number on all the patients notes?" Well... maybe? "are you asking this court to beleive that this proves you did not simply wipe the nippers from the previous patient upon your jeans in a cavalier fashion and use them again?" ahhhhhh... yes? --------------------------------------------------------------- I'm sorry. I think this is paperwork for its own sake! Satisfies the needs of any passing HPC clinical auditors (or cross infection teams in the NHS) but does nothing to actually guarentee standards nor protect us from litigation. Administration BY the administrators FOR the administrators. Sorry M8. But i AM gonna disagree with you here! Still love you though  . Robert PS Sorry. Bad day did not improve. |
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Post by Admin on Mar 18, 2009 5:29:02 GMT
Hi guys, An instrument sterilisation trail is only useful if the legislation is already in place that we all need to provide one . Then, the assumption being that everyone did this routinely, you could be asked (in Court) why you did not keep one. The Dept of Health are not about to insist that private practitioners doing routine work provide an instrument sterilisation trail. The NHS is a different beast, and well-known for sloshing money around in a panic to get rid of any unspent funds before each new financial year. Just because they have all-singing Sterilisers with printers and God-knows what else doesn't mean their instrument sterilisation protocols for Pods doing routine work are necessarily any better. It may mean that excessive and unnecessary protocols will have to be written to justify spending the money though . |
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podmum
Full Member
"There is no dark side of the moon"
Posts: 169
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Post by podmum on Mar 18, 2009 9:32:39 GMT
Just wondering how the audit trail works if the instruments taken out of any cycle were then dropped on the floor  Will there then be a need for a camera in the corner to track the clinician putting in and taking out the instruments to ensure it is done to the letter? This could then be watched by the 'powers that be' in a little room and if there is any infringement a voice could reprimand immediately . George Orwell saw it all coming - why don't we ;D Podmum - who does have eyes in the back of her head but only if a mischief is being done......... |
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ronm
Full Member
but a simple man working against insurmountable odds
Posts: 141
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Post by ronm on Mar 18, 2009 11:02:42 GMT
Ah, The old philisophical question. If a bollock is dropped in an empty room, and nobody hears it fall, does it still make a point? With respect, I think you're talking Taurine! So you've created an audit trail. Great. So do you write the cycle number from the printer to the steri pack and from thence to the notes? Every time? I strongly doubt it! And even if you did under what circumstances would this be useful. If somebody got an infection and you tried to use that as a defence they'd rip you to shreds! "so Mr Isaacs, you say you sterilized these instrument?" Yes "and what proof can you offer?" I got a number in the notes, see? "and you wrote the number on the sterile pack from the sterilizer log" Yes "do you still have the pouch?" No. "But you then transfered the number onto the patients file" Yes "can we see the patients file and all the previous sterilizer entry numbers and corresponding sterilizer receipts" ermm.... "do we have anything but your word for the fact that you did indeed use THAT set of instruments on THAT patient?" ermmmm,...... "could this effect have been recreated by, for instance, running the machine once a day and writing the number on all the patients notes?" Well... maybe? "are you asking this court to beleive that this proves you did not simply wipe the nippers from the previous patient upon your jeans in a cavalier fashion and use them again?" ahhhhhh... yes? --------------------------------------------------------------- I'm sorry. I think this is paperwork for its own sake! Satisfies the needs of any passing HPC clinical auditors (or cross infection teams in the NHS) but does nothing to actually guarentee standards nor protect us from litigation. Administration BY the administrators FOR the administrators. Sorry M8. But i AM gonna disagree with you here! Still love you though . Robert PS Sorry. Bad day did not improve. i am going to disagree with your disagreement i would be asking the court to believe that why in the name of all that is holy would i go to all this chuffin' trouble (and expense) if then i was just going to soil the 501's. an opposing barrister is going to do his/her utmost to make you look incompetent regardless, i think that showing that you have took this time and trouble to document steriilization gives your barrister (julian farquart-pendlebry-smythe) ample ammunition to actually big you up. |
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ronm
Full Member
but a simple man working against insurmountable odds
Posts: 141
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Post by ronm on Mar 18, 2009 11:36:23 GMT
Hi guys, An instrument sterilisation trail is only useful if the legislation is already in place that we all need to provide one . Then, the assumption being that everyone did this routinely, you could be asked (in Court) why you did not keep one. The Dept of Health are not about to insist that private practitioners doing routine work provide an instrument sterilisation trail. The NHS is a different beast, and well-known for sloshing money around in a panic to get rid of any unspent funds before each new financial year. Just because they have all-singing Sterilisers with printers and God-knows what else doesn't mean their instrument sterilisation protocols for Pods doing routine work are necessarily any better. It may mean that excessive and unnecessary protocols will have to be written to justify spending the money though . i would say it's the NHS responding to the "need a bit of spare cash, phone us and we'll find somebody to sue" world that we live in today. the society that created that beast should not whinge when the beast has to be feed. every penny well spent if it stops said beast biting my hybrid donkey. let the beast drink at the fountain of wet sterilization which i believe is still flowing in some areas |
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Post by robertisaacs on Mar 18, 2009 11:54:44 GMT
Well I guess there is always that....
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ronm
Full Member
but a simple man working against insurmountable odds
Posts: 141
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Post by ronm on Mar 18, 2009 12:21:52 GMT
Well I guess there is always that.... looks like you're having a better day today..... ;D |
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Post by billliggins on Mar 18, 2009 15:41:29 GMT
The trouble with feeding the beast is that ultimately, we will all be required to feed it even if not intimately acquainted with it.
Some time in the dim and distant future, Pod Smith PP gets taken to court by A.Litigious Pt. Mr Bustard (Litigious's barrister) asks whether Smith has fulfilled the generally accepted standards of the profession. Smith replies that there is guidance only, not requirements. Bustard then produces evidence that in the NHS - and when all said and done, private medicine ALWAYS (emphasis) follows NHS procedures - all employed pods. are required to provide a printed audit trail.
Will the HPC support Smith? Will Smith's professional body support him? I don't know, but I bet Smith gets dinged and I bet he whinges now that the beast has bitten him.
All the best
Bill
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Post by dtt on Mar 18, 2009 17:33:57 GMT
See smart ass ;D Thank heavens for that!! He's soooo touchy Ron at times, must be all them bollocks he keeps dropping ?? ;D ;D Cheers D |
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Post by dtt on Mar 18, 2009 21:03:12 GMT
And furthermore M'ludd Ponsonby Smythe for the defense .. Yes M'ludd my client has ALL the printouts in relation to ALL sterilistion procedures carried out in his practice made by the said printer and the said autoclave validated only last week by a "proper " person as to correct temperatures and pressures required by current standards M'ludd Furthermore M' ludd My client is a well respected registered professional person and some credence must be given to the fact he has NEVER had a previous allegation of this nature in over 150 years in practice. I therefore move the charge against him is dismissed M'ludd ( cheers from the gallery ) ORDER ORDER court in silence, foreman of the jury how do you find. NOT GUILTY M'LUDD Court erupts in cheers ,press rush up on the steps TV , radio and..... Rob then you woke up Why does everyone dream up these scenarios which NEVER HAPPEN ?? Gimme one instance of this specter that has happened in reality?? I told you the story of my previous life where I had to give medical evidence in a murder trial? The barrister for the defense started having a go at me because I had not attempted and resuscitation on the victim as I stated she was dead on arrival. The barrister said how did I know she was dead and I told him "the injuries sustained were incompatible with life" He then challenged the fact I was no qualified to state that someone was dead. The judge ( who I thought had gone to sleep) interjected and asked me "how many dead bodies have you seen in your time in this employment?" I answered if you take into consideration the mortuaries I go into in the natural course of my employment probably thousands. He turned to the barrister and said" I think we can safely assume he knows when someone is dead don't you " ?? The barrister sat down.. See Common sense does still happen in a lot of cases ;D So Next, my learned friend ;D Cheers Buddy D ( AKA Rumpole of the Bailey ) |
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) not a perfect one I agree but one nevertheless.
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Will there then be a need for a camera in the corner to track the clinician putting in and taking out the instruments to ensure it is done to the letter? This could then be watched by the 'powers that be' in a little room and if there is any infringement a voice could reprimand immediately 
Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial